#69: How Men Can Safely Explore CNC- Interview with Dotch

CNC (Consensual Non-Consent) is often discussed from a woman’s perspective, but what about men? In this episode, I’m joined by Dotch, a Somatica® practitioner who once saw CNC as a hard limit but has since learned to enjoy facilitating these fantasies. Dotch shares his journey, from initial discomfort to embracing CNC in a way that feels safe, consensual, and exciting. We discuss the challenges men face, including shame and the fear of crossing boundaries, and offer insights on how to explore CNC responsibly. Tune in for a thoughtful, candid conversation on navigating CNC from a man’s point of view.

Mentioned in this Episode

• Beginner’s CNC Play for Couples Eventbrite (Book tickets)
• Beginner's CNC Play for Couples (Fetlife Event)
• Somatica®
• Somatica® BDSM Mastery Course
• Emily Tesh - Some Desperate Glory (book)

Contact 

• Sexandmischief.coach (Dotch’s website)
• Harleyrabbit.com (My website)
• Sign up to my Newsletter
• Follow me on Fetlife
• Follow me on Instagram

Transcript

Harley (00:00)
Hey, hey friends, it is Harley Rabbit here. Welcome back to another episode of Turns Out I'm Into It, the show all about helping you discover your kinky self and live your best sex life. Today I am joined by a special guest and fellow Somatica practitioner, Dodge. Welcome to the podcast. So good to have you on the show. I'm really excited about the conversation we're going to have today because...

Dotch (00:19)
Thank you.

Harley (00:28)
we're gonna be talking about one of my favorite areas of kink, which is C &C. If anyone's been listening to the show for a while, they'll know that I'm definitely into C &C play, consensual non-consent play. But I can only really share about it from my perspective, from a bottom's perspective. So I'm looking forward to hearing about your perspective with C &C from a top. So I'll have lots of questions about that, but also...

I'm looking forward to getting to know you and about your kink journey and your, yeah, what you enjoy about being in this community.

Dotch (01:04)
I lost my voice a couple of days ago, so I'm a little bit Kathleen Turner today, but that's okay.

Harley (01:08)
No, it's still sounding really deep and sexy from my end. before we jump into today's conversation, I just wanted to give my listeners a reminder that I'm running a workshop this weekend in CNC play. If you're curious about getting started with this kink, that's an online workshop, so you can attend from anywhere in the world. If you're interested, just head over to the show notes and you'll be able to get a link to that.

and if you can't make the date and time, there will be a replay. So, all right. Let's get started. Me too. All right. So let's just start at the start. Do you want to tell us a bit about where Kink began for you? When did you first discover that you were into BDSM?

Dotch (01:44)
All right. Yeah, I'm ready.

Yes, so the foundation got laid way before I discovered anything, before I was aware of it. And it's going to sound kind of funny, but my brothers and I were all gymnasts, right? And what that does, is like gymnastics and acrobatics, especially can be sexy and not sexual, right? But what it does is first of all,

Harley (02:14)
Yes.

Dotch (02:28)
links all of the scrapes and bruises and minor and major injuries with achievement, with fun, with kind of daring and getting out of your comfort zone and into something really exciting. And right. mean, if you're having that much fun, it's going to hurt. Right. And and so eventually that turned into if stuff's hurting, I'm having fun. And I'm kind of famous on my gymnastics team for this.

Harley (02:36)
Mmm.

wow, I can definitely see the link there. Yeah.

Dotch (02:58)
But it's definitely kind of cemented in something that makes me a great flogging practice target. yeah, over the weekend, I literally teamed up with the young woman, Hayley, who was teaching flogging to our coaching classmates, to our Somatica coaches. And as the practice target,

Harley (03:08)
Can you elaborate on that?

Dotch (03:26)
They're not gonna hurt me. I'm literally the toy that they cannot break, right? So even their fuck ups feel pretty good and they leave some marks and that's okay. But while she is teaching them and giving them feedback, I can also turn around and give them feedback. And so that was really fun. We went through, we brought a bunch of students through it and had just the greatest time and we're probably gonna do it more because I loved it.

Harley (03:33)
Yeah.

Wow, that's awesome. So it sounds like you're a bit of a switch then. So you can, you can, you're happy to be on the receiving end as well.

Dotch (03:57)
before somatic and training, I did not know that I was a switch. I didn't even know that I was into BDSM. And so because I thought that being a sub or a bottom for a guy required being like humiliated and called a little boy and I don't need that, right? But turns out if I'm restrained and being, having temptation everywhere, I can do that all.

Harley (04:00)
Okay.

Right.

that sounds really fun. Yep.

Dotch (04:23)
The other thing that gymnastics did that was kind of deeper is that we spot each other, right? That's how you learn skills safely. And when you're spotting a gymnast or an acrobat, you are attuning to them. You're keeping your voice confident and calm and strong, and you're keeping them safe while they do something outside their comfort zone. That is exactly what a good dom does. It's all those things.

Harley (04:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Dotch (04:53)
And so had no idea that that's what I was kind of laying a little foundation for.

Harley (05:00)
Absolutely. And that's like some of those core foundations too for kink. Like they're things that a lot of the time people don't see on the surface. They think it's all about playing the part or the sexual aspects of it. But such a crucial part of being a dominant, a safe dominant is to be able to, like as you say, spot your partner effectively and attune to them and keep them safe while you're playing and while you're having fun.

Dotch (05:02)
And then,

Yeah.

Exactly, exactly.

when I became a Somatica client a long time ago, and I did that to level up, like how much more can I give my partner? And that.

Harley (05:31)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (05:37)
was super fun. Fast forward a whole bunch of years. So I trained with Celeste and Danielle directly. And then I went through some life and death stuff. I had life threatening cancer and survived it. And coming out of that, I was like, okay, nothing matters but helping people find what turns them on. And so I contacted Celeste and Danielle and said,

did you start training coaches? Because I might want to do that. And here we are, right? I started the training.

Harley (06:13)
Yeah. Well, so you came into Somatica initially as a, as a client because you were wanting to level up your, your skills about the sounds of it.

Dotch (06:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, I came in with one goal, which is how much pleasure I dig my brunette so much. How much pleasure can I possibly give her? And and and it was very funny because I guess a lot of guys come in with that goal because both Celleste and Danielle were like, OK, this is that's good goal. Good job. But if you get a little greedier and get more pleasure for yourself, that's going to feel better to her anyway.

Harley (06:30)
you

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes. I'm so excited to hear you say that. Yeah. I have a feeling that that is going to be a theme for this conversation today is about it's okay to lean into your desire. And that's actually what makes it really sexy and fun for your partner as well. I think that's the best thing you can do. Yeah.

Dotch (06:53)
And right. mean, it's just so good. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that surprised the hell out of me in a CNC context because I would have told you a year ago that I had no desire in there, that I would try my best to do that for somebody, but that a rape fantasy makes me angry. It triggers me. so, however, the training is so structured and so good.

Harley (07:32)
Yeah.

Dotch (07:39)
And I'll talk about that a little bit, but I was able to, by surprise, drop into something fantastic. And really, is joy to be found there with the safety rail still in place.

Harley (07:55)
Definitely. Okay. I feel like there's a lot to unpack in, in that process on. So you've gone from signing up for sex coaching because you want to be a better lover to having this realization of it. It's actually about like to be a better lover. You've got to lean into your desires. And then you've gone from thinking C &C is something that's really triggering and not for you at all.

Dotch (07:56)
Hmm.

Yeah.

All right.

Hmm.

Harley (08:18)
And then obviously across this process, you've discovered that this is a space you really enjoy playing in. So can you maybe tell me a bit about that process? Like how did you go from a hard no to actually, this is really fun.

Dotch (08:20)
Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. I, I started training, I saw the link for the BDSM Mastery course and I thought, okay, whips and chains. If somebody's into that, then that's cool. They can sign up for it. I'll probably give that a miss. And then the partway through our training in between two of our class weeks, I got

a private note from a super cute coaching student, hi Allie, and she said, they're not doing domination till next month, but do you wanna practice it now? And I was like, yes, I actually, yes I do, let's do that. And so we did online and it was so ridiculously fun that we've done in-person sessions since then. We went for our...

Harley (09:05)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, yep.

Yeah.

Dotch (09:29)
For our first DS, we did strict professor, slutty student, right? Which is a fun one because everybody knows it. I can absolutely bring that, right? That's something that you just, I mean, it's also very easy to lean in and tell her that we have a very strict dress code. Your underwear should not be visible. Do you have any idea where you've left them?

Harley (09:34)
Ooh.

You

it's working for me already.

Dotch (10:03)
And so we had so much fun that then Shelby Devlin came and talked at our class on that next thing. And I did a whole bunch more practice with more of my classmates. And every time it just amped up and up. And then I looked at the link and I was like, it was like that moment when you realize when you're in college that you can major in anything that's actually interesting to you.

Harley (10:11)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (10:28)
That's, it was that, it was that kind of, wait a minute, I can specialize in becoming a practice buddy or an intro buddy for people. And if someone wants to practice being a dominatrix, it's not just that she won't hurt my body. She's not going to my feelings. And that's something that you can't say of trying it with your partner.

Harley (10:38)
Mm-hmm.

yeah, that's probably one of the biggest or the scariest parts about playing with a partner and exploring this world is that I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to hurt their feelings.

Dotch (11:01)
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you have a good setup with your partner from based on your other podcasts and stuff.

Harley (11:06)
We do all right. We have lots of fun. It's still scary though, you know, like I had this realization when we did a role play the other week that I had this role play that I wanted to try with him, this fantasy. And I talk about my fantasies on this podcast all the time and I do it with my clients and in my classes. Yeah, it's great. But it still felt really scary to share that with him. And even though I know

Dotch (11:11)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Of course. And I love it, by the way.

Hmm.

Harley (11:35)
that he's safe excited about exploring this with me. But yeah, there's something about with a partner, like I think the more you care about them, the more you're invested in the outcome. And the more it can hurt if it doesn't go well. So yeah, it's tough.

Dotch (11:48)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and that's it too. It's not just that you might push a boundary and be sad that you did that. It's that if it's not that good, then where are you? And also with stuff like this, one of the things I've learned is you don't have to get everything you need from one person. So it's very, very valuable. One of the best things about the coach training is doing this kind of work with as many different people as possible.

Harley (12:00)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.

Dotch (12:20)
so that's super fun. I found out then that Shelby, the BDSM coach, her office is literally six blocks from where I live. And so, yeah, I know I had this, I had this like moment of there's no way that I can live on this planet at the same time at the same place as this Jedi master and not go do training, right?

Harley (12:31)
that's perfect. I'm so jealous.

Yup.

Dotch (12:49)
And it's an opportunity that is impossible to pass up. And I'm really, really, really glad that I dove into it. And yeah.

Harley (12:58)
I just want everyone listening, you just said you're really, really glad that you dove into it. it's, it's, it's really, I don't know, there's, it's scary to get started into this world, but I think often we, we have so much fun and discover so much of ourselves along the way. It's so worth it.

Dotch (13:03)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, it took me a long time and a near-death experience to like realize that it's important. then still, even then, I wouldn't have known, especially on the CNC stuff. would have, even at this point when I started training with Shelby, my assumption was that that was kind of just not something I was ever going to be near. Yeah, yeah, just

Harley (13:35)
Mm-hmm.

The C &C play. Yeah.

Dotch (13:46)
So I did a workshop with Shelby, which was a bunch of then part of the structure of that is the room, is the container that you put your play in, even for just regular DS. You put it in a container, obviously you have safe words, but you also know each other's boundaries and core desires, and it makes a good container. And with CNC,

Harley (13:57)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (14:13)
Even now, if we have not specifically negotiated that, if you haven't looked into my eyes and said, I want you to do this, which is what it took for Shelby to get me to do it the first time. Then if we haven't done that, then when we're playing and you say no, stop or really resist, I'm going to back off. I'm going to stop. I don't give a shit what the safe words are because getting through it and finding out you weren't having fun.

Harley (14:23)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (14:41)
is like that'll torture me. a ridiculous story. As a teenager, I had a date at Disneyland. And you know the teacups where you grab the wheel in the middle and spin them around? This is a ride, yeah, where you just, and if you're a gymnast, you're a super strong kid, you can spin them really fast, right? And that's great fun. My date,

Harley (14:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yup.

Dotch (15:09)
when we got really fast, fell over onto her side and was laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. And so I thought she was having a great time. And when I stopped, she barfed and it turns out she was not having a great time. was, and the date was over. I mean, no harm done really, but the date was over. And that was a little lesson that kind of sticks in my mind. Cause if you are doing everything you can.

Harley (15:37)
So the laughing reaction was actually like an uncontrollable response, but she was actually not enjoying herself, not having fun. Wow. Yeah.

Dotch (15:43)
Yeah, yeah. And even in BDSM, people have different, like maybe if you cross somebody's boundaries, maybe they freeze instead of saying no, right?

Harley (15:51)
Yes. Yep. Or fawning. did an episode about the fawning response of just on the, if you're feeling afraid of, of this top to just, you go into this please mode, people pleasing mode. And then it's not until later that you're like, fuck, that actually wasn't okay. Yeah. So it's tricky territory. Yeah.

Dotch (15:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so I literally will, yeah, if we're doing this, I will literally have you practice the safe words beforehand, the yellow and the red, whatever they are, so that you know it's okay to say them and you're not gonna bum me out by saying them. You're not gonna disappoint me. If anything, it's the best thing you can possibly do.

Harley (16:28)
It would make you feel safer as the top, I'm assuming, to knowing that the sub can use their safe w@rds and that they will use them. Yeah. Yeah.

Dotch (16:34)
Yeah, is the only way I can feel safe. I'm not going to do CNC otherwise. I had been training with Shelby and doing, we did the workshop and we did some one-on-ones and then, and those are super fun. It's like already each session is the best two hours of my life, right? And this from somebody who thought maybe he wasn't going to do this. And then

Harley (16:59)
Yeah, so interesting.

Dotch (17:01)
Yeah, but then during class, once in a while, a student who's got more experience or or the instructor will just kind of reference harder, darker shit that goes on. so then we shall be and I email each other in between like getting ready for the next session so that we know what to focus on. And I wrote to her and said, you have shown me how to camp in the woods and now I want to see the wolves. Right.

Harley (17:13)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (17:31)
I, if there's something disturbing that somebody is going to want, I want to learn from you

because she's got a logical perspective on it. And that's very constructive for me. I need that.

Harley (17:41)
Mm-hmm.

So what happened next? Did you meet the wolves?

Dotch (17:47)
Well, our very next session, I did.

and so a spoiler alert I got, at the end of our, of our, recent CNC stuff, I got a, an A plus in CNC DOM and a in, forceful touch and a C in ready in a verbal degradation of women.

Harley (17:55)
Okay.

Yeah.

In a sense, You found that a bit, a bit harder.

Dotch (18:19)
It turns out I suck at that. She literally said, if a client comes to you wanting this, you maybe refer them out to somebody who's better.

Harley (18:31)
It's okay, we all have our strengths and our weaknesses.

Dotch (18:34)
Yeah, yeah, my brunette was like, and we're married.

Harley (18:40)
Okay. So I'm really curious about these categories. So what was it? the, in a CNC DOM, forceful touch and verbal degradation, were they the three categories or were there more? Okay.

Dotch (18:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

No, they weren't the three categories. were just three times that she shouted a letter grade at me. Yes, or gently told me a letter grade. But there are categories, though. There's a lot of structure which helps me with all of this. Because then if there's structure, that's a form of boundaries, and I know what we're in for, what to expect. And so a good example is

Harley (18:58)
okay, okay.

Yup.

Mm-hmm.

Dotch (19:20)
We've been working with three different levels of CNC. And then I added a fourth level in my own mind, which is level zero. And that's any restraint play. If you think about it, you could be cuffed to the wall and yelling, yes, yes, yes. But still you're trying to free yourself. so it's like the mainstream CNC.

Harley (19:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. I love that mainstream CNC. Yeah. Cause, and that's because those feelings of being restricted or bound or a little bit vulnerable can be a huge turn on to a lot of us. And for a lot of people, all they need is just some, some cuffs on or, some ropes on, but, for others, we like to ramp it up even more.

Dotch (19:46)
Yeah, I mean it totally is you, know, you...

Hmm.

for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. And even that simple, it brings stuff up. You know, you can have someone cry in the middle and still not want to stop or cry and then be ready for aftercare and cuddle or whatever.

Harley (20:10)
Yes.

you tell? Like how do you use your best judgment? If someone is crying in a scene or looking quite distressed and they're saying, keep going, how do you feel, make that call of whether or not you should keep going? Are you leaving that in their hands or are you making an assessment yourself?

Dotch (20:38)
As someone who has more training than experience, because I'm just starting out as a coach, right? I would probably call yellow if I felt that even if she was saying, keep going, if I was having trouble with it, right? I would probably, so the coach can call yellow, the dom can call yellow. I learned this in, this is actually really relevant now that I think about it. In the,

Harley (20:43)
Mm. Mm.

Definitely, yes.

Mm.

Dotch (21:08)
in Shelby's BDSM workshop, which is a whole like a long three day weekend, four days, something like that. There was a session that I still refer to as my Kobayashi. I don't know if so if anyone listening is a Star Trek nerd like me, the Kobayashi Maru is and you know, you guys know this already. It's the unwinnable scenario. You put a starship captain through this while you're training them.

and there's no winning solution and everybody on the spaceship dies and just in pretend because it's a training scenario and you use it to evaluate how somebody responds to failure. And it's very valuable and it sucks. And I had a session where I was the dom. I was looking forward to it because as an athlete, I'm usually stronger and heavier than my people I'm performing with. And so I'm

Harley (21:44)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (22:05)
in the Dom role and that's my go-to natural. And so, I was looking forward to this, she was looking forward to it, but the submissive was upset about some stuff that was not related and went into the thing, super activated and super upset. We tried to do some offloading and some soothing beforehand, but there were still tears. In real life, we probably would have said, let's not do this, let's cuddle, let's do something else.

Harley (22:22)
Mm.

Yeah.

Dotch (22:35)
but we were literally in the workshop. We're supposed to do the thing. And also I felt like her expectations would have been not met if I backed down. So I tried to do something that now I know anytime I think about it, fix it on the fly. I tried to fix it on the fly. Don't do this. This is a terrible idea. We started with tears and I used all of my voice. My voice is one of my best

DS tools and it is can be used to soothe and make what you're doing as a DOM is you're making a comfy container of whatever the cell wants to feel and you're keeping that comfy and keeping them feeling it. And so I was trying so hard to do that later on crying started again but at that point I was causing it and

Harley (23:16)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (23:30)
what should have happened was she or I should have called yellow. That's what I saying. The coach can call yellow or the dom can call yellow or red. What ended up happening was the instructor, Shelby, walked in toward the end, saw what was happening and did aftercare with both of us. And it was what we needed. It was great. But it was a lesson for both of us on not

Harley (23:34)
Hmm.

Dotch (23:58)
resisting calling it out.

Harley (24:01)
Yeah. There's a few things I want to say to speak to that is the first is, well, of course that huge lesson of Dom's can use safe words. everyone can use safe words and that's always okay. but also that you've had this experience where something like it didn't go well, you didn't use your safe words. You've in retrospect would have done it differently. and you've learned from that and.

this is, think, I mean, we all want to avoid things going wrong, but it happens. And just being able to navigate that and take care of each other, ourselves and our partners, when things don't go the way we want, when we've made a mistake and communicate afterwards and reconnect and, kind of move on from that. think that's a really valuable skill as well, because I mean, we talk about this space being such a dangerous space and it

It is, and it can be, but we're not perfect. A lot of us are trying stuff for the first time. Like, I mean, I've talked on this podcast about, some experiences that I've had that haven't gone well or, specifically doing a, it was a workshop again. So I think workshops do put a bit of pressure on us to, you know, you've got to.

Dotch (25:02)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Harley (25:22)
You've got to do it, even if you're not feeling like it, like you want to maximize this opportunity. Yeah. So you kind of ignore all those voices that are like, you know what? I don't think I'm up for this today. and that's hard too. So. but in, in my experience, I was lucky enough that I was able to, like during the workshop, during the scene, I was being put into a TK tie. was a Shibari workshop.

Dotch (25:27)
That's what I was. Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Harley (25:50)
And my body was like, no, I'm just, I'm not up for this right now. and I had to say, to Slade was my partner, tying me. And I just said, can you untie me? And I felt terrible because we're here to learn and we've spent all this money and everyone's going to look and see that I'm, but.

Dotch (26:08)
Now you need to be able to take care of yourself.

Harley (26:11)
What happened was about maybe 10 minutes later, I felt like, I can't wait to get back into ropes again because I've just tested my safe word and it worked. And now I feel like I've got control again. So yeah.

Dotch (26:26)
Yeah, it's huge. I mean, you need to test the fire extinguishers, right? And it's super important and making everybody comfortable with it. And it's not a big deal. They're not, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the structure that there has been in the training that's super useful for me. So level zero I mentioned is restraint playing, right? Yeah, I know. We can go on these 10.

Harley (26:30)
Yeah.

It's not a big deal. It's okay. Yeah.

Yes, yes. We get so off tracks.

Dotch (26:54)
We can get off into the weeds and I'll try to remember, but I'm not that good. So level one, which was the first one that I didn't make up is the romance novel, right? It is, she says no. So you pin her up against the wall and she says no, but it's going to be yes. And so it's no, we shouldn't, right? Or it's no, not here. Yeah. And so that's fun.

Harley (27:01)
haha

Okay. Yeah.

Dotch (27:24)
That touches some of my core desires.

So it was easy for me because number one on my core desires, I didn't know this before training. Number one is MISTIF. I love it so much. I need it. And so,

Harley (27:40)
Yeah.

So just to clarify if people listening don't know, when we're saying core desires, we're saying the feelings that we want to feel during play or during sex that get us the most excited. And we often have very unique core desires. So Dutch, you're saying yours is mischief, one of yours is mischief. That's fun. Okay. Yeah.

Dotch (28:01)
Yes. Yeah, it is super fun. And my classmates know this. And in real life, if there is an off limits hot tub, I need to be in it and preferably not alone.

Harley (28:18)
Yeah.

Dotch (28:21)
Right. There's photo evidence of this. then the level one is a little bit awkward for me too though, because there's an exercise we do in Somatica called Up Against the Wall, where you kind of passionately pin someone against the wall. And that's pretty fun, but it can be a little bit awkward just because it's kind of a set up situation, right? And so this with the romance novel thing, I've got her against the wall and I'm

Harley (28:37)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (28:50)
And it shall be that I've got against the wall and and I'm super attracted to her and I'm trying to think of things to say. And that's not easy. Right. You're improv. You're being an improv actor while you're distracted. Extremely right. And so that was OK. Now we got to level two. Level two is she says no and stop and it's going to stay. No, this is the rape fantasy. Right. This is the hard.

Harley (29:00)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dotch (29:22)
is the one that I thought I wouldn't be able to do. And this is where she literally, when I hesitated, she looked in my eyes and said, I want you to do this. And so I kind of wound up and got ready and we started it kind of like the other one.

then when I had her against the wall, she started to fight back really hard. And she actually wanted to get away. And something dropped in me somewhere in that while I was not thinking of things to do, I just was, she's super petite. She controls me completely, but she's a little thing and powerful.

but not that strong. And so there was no chance that she was gonna be able to get away, but she was trying as she put it 80%. And at some point, I connected with something honest in me. And that's the only way I could put it when she asked later, I used the word honest that did actually want to pick her up, throw down on the mattress, hold her down and fuck her. Right. And.

The safety rails are still in place. This is a roller coaster, Scary stuff's gonna happen and you know that it's really safe, but the next thing I knew, I was coming back into the room kind of like you might do after a powerful orgasm, right? When you're like kind of lose where you are. And I heard her yelling, yes, yes, yes, that's it, A plus. Right. While I was grinding into her as holding her down on the bed,

Harley (30:48)
Mm.

Dotch (31:01)
not exactly remembering how we got there. And so that was the first time that I realized that the so number two on my core desires is femsexual that was that I mean, there's some connection there, but it really the honesty there was interesting.

Harley (31:01)
You

Dotch (31:28)
She said that she never felt unsafe, which made me feel good. And then...

So something shifted there and we talked about it for a long time. And then the third level is same thing. It's no, it's going to stay no, but it's somebody, the person doing it is so disgusting to you that it's degrading that it's happening. Right. And so this is the kind of sewer dweller fantasy or when she, when she wanted to get mean and she talked about this, she said, okay, think of your least favorite politician.

And I was like, shit, you didn't have to go there. Come on. that's, that's cause a lot of, a lot of kind of scary looking people are hot. Right. And so yeah. And that, I discovered in doing that one, I think if, if it's, if it's an actual, client, if they're that disgusted by me, I hope they're not my client. Right. They did not decide to, to.

do this. So I can't really I guess I could not shower or something but I can't really make myself that gross. What I'm Yeah.

Harley (32:44)
Can I just clarify on which end of this is the degradation? are you as the top imagining the sub as someone that you're disgusted by, or is it the sub imagining, the sub is imagining.

Dotch (32:54)
No, it's the opposite. The sub is being taken by somebody they are not attracted to and that they are viscerally repulsed by. Right.

Harley (33:01)
Yes, okay. Okay, and the advice is to think of your least favourite politician.

Dotch (33:09)
It is, but my God, that's too, that's too dark. It's so fucked up. Right. And so what I realized is that that's mostly in her head. If she wants to, if that's the fantasy that we're doing, I don't really do anything different. It's the same as level two in a lot of ways. I might say different things, but really it's.

Harley (33:12)
It's so far!

Yes.

Yeah.

Dotch (33:39)
It's very similar from my end, but I need to hold her more carefully, hold her harder. And, you know, it's going to be more intense. And I don't know this firsthand because I have not been a CNC sub. With one slight exception at in physical practice with a couple of classmates who are female, taller than me.

Harley (33:47)
Mm. Mm.

Right.

Yeah.

Dotch (34:08)
heavier than me, I'm strong. So I can literally lift their bodies off the ground if they try to pin me. there was a lot of daring going on, but also they play rough. And through two of them, exactly two in my adult life, through strength and cleverness and leverage were able to pin me so I actually couldn't move. And that's the closest, yeah, that's the closest I've come to this and.

Harley (34:16)
Yeah.

Ooh.

Dotch (34:37)
What I discovered is that I definitely, definitely have a Xena Warrior Princess King.

Harley (34:43)
Okay. As in you like to be, you want to be held down and you want to be... Yeah.

Dotch (34:47)
This power, the femerotic power, when it's high power, it's good.

Harley (34:51)
Yep. Yeah, I was going to ask you to clarify that. Yeah, your second core desire you said was femsexual power. So you're meaning like a really powerful female partner that can take control of you. Is that what you were going?

Dotch (34:57)
Yeah.

Yeah. Although that second core desire has a lot of room for just fem erotic gaze or energy and aroused body, anything. any all of you to me, you are the best thing on planet Earth. Right. That is absolutely my jam. And any fantasy that has mischief and fem sexual awesomeness is going to work on me. Right. That's all I need.

Harley (35:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

All right. So there's a lot I want to unpack from what you've just said then. I want to go back to this experience you had with Shelby. were you doing this, the level two scene where you were trying to get to that level where she was going to fight you back and resist you and say no. And you initially felt that hesitation in your body, which I can totally understand. Every part of you, you know, itself would be like, I'm not this person. Like,

Dotch (35:34)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah... Yeah...

my God, that's important. What you just said is important because I've said it specifically to coaches that I've done light CNC practice with. Let's let's be clear. I'm not this person.

Harley (36:01)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dotch (36:17)
I would rather lose my left arm than assault or hurt anybody. Yeah.

Harley (36:21)
Yeah, I think we'll touch on that again. Because I think having that separation between like understanding that this is a is a game. This is, as you said, that it's in a container of safety is a completely different thing to an actual assault. They're just not the same thing at all. In BDSM, are safety and pleasure and boundaries are all at the center of our priorities.

Dotch (36:38)
Yeah.

Harley (36:50)
So as long as you're doing that, you're not deliberately pushing someone's boundaries and that you're always feeling confident that this is what they want, then you're not assaulting them. That's a very different thing.

Dotch (37:01)
Yeah, we are adults who are deciding on an activity to play out, right? A lot of the time as Somatica coaches, we get through and we get through someone's fantasy and say, all right, you want to try that? You want to play that out and not shame it, right? You have these dark fantasies and you don't want, you want to de-shame it. You want to explore it safely.

Harley (37:06)
Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

Dotch (37:22)
But still, I feel it in my chest and my arms right now. just, I need the container to be good and to be what you want.

Harley (37:29)
Yeah. I, I, I like to use this analogy of the shark cage when I talk about this container. So it's like, you like lots of, mean, I'm not really into it, but imagine going swimming with sharks is a scary, thrilling, exciting experience, right? And you can do that safely and it's really fun.

Dotch (37:37)
Hmm

Yeah.

Harley (37:53)
amazing to see these dangerous creatures so close and playing with those like thrills and fears and all of that. But if you take that cage away, that container of safety away, it's not fun anymore. It's very important that we have our shark cage in place.

Dotch (38:03)
It's not fun. No. No.

Yeah, one thing I've discovered is I love providing that. I like being able to be the shark cage and the roller coaster. know, actually, I grew up with safe, sweet, stable, boring, we're all linked and you couldn't unlink them. And I had a long relationship.

Harley (38:22)
Mmm.

Dotch (38:40)
where that was still the case. I was safe, stable, not desired. And that is, for a guy, that's not where you want to be. That's a little bit rough. yeah, but also I had a little bit of a crisis in Somatica about that because all of the guys in Somatica are, they're awesome, they're amazing. I love working with them. They're drawn to this for a reason.

Harley (38:53)
Not where anyone wants to be, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dotch (39:08)
but also they're just so damn sexy that I was feeling like the nice guy in the middle of a bunch of hotties. And then we have small groups in Symatic. We have little cohorts and my small group ladies and my brunette put that to rest. They were like this detoxing, mellow masculinity. The best thing about you, that's what you're ashamed of?

Harley (39:36)
Tell me about.

Dotch (39:36)
yeah, so this is a way to decouple it. For me, this is a way to decouple safe and sweet and stable from and link in exciting and get rid of boring.

Harley (39:47)
Right. So instead of, yeah, you're saying that safe, stable is always boring, but you've been able to unlink that. And now you've discovered that you can still be safe and be fucking exciting as well. Yeah. That's where the best excitement comes. That's where we feel safest too. Like when we feel safe, we feel like we can explore and we can push boundaries and explore our limits. Safety is hot. Yeah.

Dotch (39:58)
Well yeah, exactly.

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same with. Yeah, it is. It is. And it's the same with gymnasts and acrobats, right? You cannot get to the really gnarly stuff if you don't do it safely.

Harley (40:21)
Yeah, I love that analogy.

Dotch (40:23)
It's with me every day because I'm literally all three every day.

Harley (40:28)
All right. So tell me about this moment, or you just beautifully described that moment of you felt something honest in you when you were playing with Shelby and you kind of stepped out of that, I'm playing a role and like, pretending to be this person for the purposes of the role play. sounds like you suddenly tapped into something real in yourself and your real desire there that helped you.

Dotch (40:36)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Harley (40:54)
really step into that role and embody it.

Dotch (40:58)
Yeah, I think the thing that I would liken it to the most is as a gymnast and an acrobat, there's a moment where you're in free fall. It doesn't last for very long, right? But you've let go of something and you haven't hit anything yet, right? And that's the time when my voices, voices of self-doubt, voices of like, what am I gonna say next? They go quiet. And I love that feeling. That's a lot of why I do all that stuff is I...

Harley (41:08)
Mm.

Dotch (41:28)
I just pursue that feeling where all of my voices are quiet for a little bit. And that's basically what happened. I got to a moment where she was fighting back really hard and then dropped into something where I wasn't doubting myself. I wasn't shaming myself for what I was trying to portray. that just physically for me, that's a great feeling.

I don't think I get that often enough in life, but it's super fun.

Harley (42:03)
What helped you get to that point that you could stop second guessing yourself?

Dotch (42:09)
I think it was, I mean, really it was the instruction. I could have done that with Play Partners a hundred times and never gotten there. I think just there's physical exertion that was part of it. Cause I mean, she's pushing back really hard. I have to push back hard to stop her. And but then also there was clarity on what to do.

And I think I said things during it. In fact, I think I remember after one of her escape attempts, leaning in and just saying, how'd that work out for you? I just started like, I don't know, it's like I started purring.

Harley (42:50)
Yeah, I love it.

Yeah. So do you think that came from, when you're saying you, that came from the instruction, do you mean like her looking you in the eye and saying, I want this and being really clear that this is something that she wants and it's okay to lean into this.

Dotch (43:07)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, my, my safeties are so locked down this, I honestly thought this would never happen.

I honestly never thought that I would get there with CNT at all. And so it's a surprise to me. It's a pretty recent surprise. And since then I've done a bunch of light practices. I haven't really gone level two or level three with a partner or a client yet, but with coaches who have wanted, actually, I guess we did level two with one of the coaches. But there was another coach watching and I had to pause beforehand and say,

Harley (43:47)
Mm.

Dotch (43:54)
just so we're clear, this is not me. This is our play, this is our container. And they were both fine, but they were rolling their eyes and saying, duh, we know because we know you. And we would not be here practicing with you if we didn't feel as able to. And so, and that feels good. That feels like who I want to be. Somebody safe enough to do the harder, darker stuff with.

Harley (44:05)
That's usually what happens.

Dotch (44:23)
That really feels good to be trusted with that.

Harley (44:28)
was going to say there's a lot of trust there. Yeah. I mean, from a, from a bottom's perspective, telling someone that you want to have them play this fantasy with you is really scary. Like, yeah, it's taken me a very long time. And even to be honest, still sometimes I'll be like, what is wrong with me? You know, but I know better now. And like, that's just conditioning and,

Dotch (44:31)
Yeah.

I can't imagine.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there is a ton of shame in this space for, I mean, for men, I'm sure, but for me, for sure, just the...

the damage that's done in the real world. I hope that doing this helps people kind of take agency over their own bodies and, you know, I want to help people restore from whatever they need to, but also help people explore things that might feel really good, but that it might take forever to decide.

Harley (45:14)
Mm.

Dotch (45:38)
And you're not going to walk into a club and say, someone do this. That's I mean, that I can't even. Yeah, is that there's so much in this that is. Physically powerfully activating to me that it's it was. A big deal. And I feel very, very special that that Shelby as an instructor was. Able to walk me through it.

Harley (45:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think as you say, like, when we play in this space and we create these scenes, we're learning about agency and we're learning about safety and boundaries and what is okay and what isn't okay. And I think what I've learned in, in Kink and BDSM, with CNC and with, with all the other kinks I'm into, I've learned more about agency than I have.

Dotch (46:31)
Hmm.

Harley (46:35)
in any other aspect of my life, like it's really taught me to be, to know where the line is and how to protect myself and, where I P I previously would have slipped into people pleaser mode or just put up with something. Now I've learned that how to read myself and be like, is this what I want? And then if it's a no, I now I'm a lot better at communicating that too, in a way that's not super confrontational and I can have these conversations and you know, that

Dotch (46:42)
Hmm.

Yeah... Yeah.

Harley (47:04)
That yellow, calling a yellow, I think, as that intermediate safe word, where it's not a stop, it's a pause. Can we just have a, can we just have a, yeah.

Dotch (47:06)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, it was not even a yeah, it doesn't even have to be a great character, right? You if somebody calls yellow, you can lean in if you just if you just hit them with a crop or something and they call yellow, you can lean in and say, is that too hard for you? You wanted a five and that was more like an eight. now what?

Harley (47:21)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

I love that little condescension in the tone there. It's yummy.

Dotch (47:38)
Yeah. Yeah, there's so much fun to be had with that. And but but at the same time, they know that they've communicated to you that they're steering, right? They're steering a vehicle that's moving and rather than pulling the handbrake.

Harley (47:51)
Yeah.

I want to just to address that a little bit because to me, when I, when I use yellow, it is a scene break. It's a, it's a pause button. It's we're pausing the scene and we're speaking to each other as ourselves in reality. Whereas you're, it sounds like you're saying that you can, you have this understanding that a yellow can be a, we'll, we'll still be playing, but I'll take that on board that you've just said that that's nearing a limit.

Dotch (48:03)
Hmm... Hmm...

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it is. It is. It's feedback. It's and I had someone call Yellow just in in some practice over the weekend. And I'm trying to remember the exact circumstance, but it was it was I think it was spanking actually and trying to find the right level. And so it Yellow was I don't want to stop. I still want to do this. I'm still having fun. That's about

the high end of what we're gonna do. that's, it's so much more important. It's so much better than not having it.

Harley (48:49)
Yep. Yeah.

Absolutely. It's a way to communicate. Yeah. But I think that raises the question that it's important to have a conversation prior to what those safe words mean. So even though we're still using yellow and red, it might be, we might need to clarify that if is, is yellow a pause or is yellow a, all right, we'll continue the scene, but I'll, I'll make a mental note. Yeah.

Dotch (49:16)
Yeah, yeah, and you're right. That communication is hugely important. And it also, at the same time, it's not that big a deal because if you break the scene too much, that's fine. Right? You know, that's better than going the other way.

Harley (49:23)
Mm.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, well, it's almost, Slade, my partner has said that he finds it easier, cause it doesn't disrupt his dom space. So like when I say yellow, he'll be like, I'm hitting pause on my dom space for now and you can talk to me. yeah. And then when it's green, it's like, all right, I'm back in my dom space. Yeah.

Dotch (49:43)
Yeah.

got it, got it.

Yeah, yeah, In the same practice over the weekend, was, I'm just remembering, there were two classmates who wanted to do the somatica up against the wall, which is a passionate pin somewhat against the wall. But they wanted it to be a little bit of level one CNC. So they wanted to fight back. And so the first one was a little smaller than Shelby even, just.

Harley (50:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dotch (50:20)
You know, she's super cute and so fun and so smiley. And we got got her pinned against the wall. And then I just leaned in and said, no, fight back. And and she did. And it was hot and it was fun. And we had such a great time. And so then the other classmate and I'm not going to say their names because they didn't ask them. But the other classmates said, OK, I'm going do this. And so I got them.

Harley (50:42)
Yeah.

Dotch (50:50)
pinned against the wall and I was about to say, now fight back. And suddenly I almost got my ass kicked. Like this is a strong, I had underestimated the strength of this person. I don't know how I so badly underestimated it, but all of a sudden I was doing everything I possibly could to keep them pinned and keep them contained and it wasn't working. And it was so, it was really fun. It became kind of this fight that

Harley (50:58)
Well...

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's like a real challenge there. Yeah.

Dotch (51:20)
was, yeah, and I think if they had been saying no and it was gonna stay no, I feel like I would have been on the floor broken and hearing no thank you.

So yeah, I mean, I usually think of myself as super strong and I might have come close to meeting my match on this one.

Harley (51:40)
It's always a good reminder Yeah

that makes me think of if you're a CNC submissive, sometimes you don't want to fight back too hard. Like play to your top strengths, right? Yeah.

Dotch (51:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. no, I usually like in both up against the wall and in fighting back. I just say lay into me. Give me absolutely everything you've got. And in this case, with the classmate who was who was really wearing very femme, pretty awesome clothing, it was just an error on my part. Fight back as hard as you can. shit.

Harley (52:05)
Yeah.

wow, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Dotch (52:24)
So, which I mean, honestly for me that hit some core desires and that was

Harley (52:28)
Yeah. I think that's fun to have that permission to like, if I had a partner say that to me, like, give me everything you've got. Cause, I mean, we've been talking about it from the top's perspective about needing that reassurance that the bottom is wanting this. I think as a, as a bottom, I need that from the top as well. I need to know that they're okay with me resisting them. I need to know that they're okay with me verbally resisting them. Cause that can be different. like, are you comfortable with this? Are you?

Dotch (52:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a big one.

Harley (52:58)
Cause otherwise like I've got a bunch of shame in me and I don't want you to freak out and then make me feel bad for playing out this fantasy. I want to feel comfortable that we're both here and we're both enjoying this. Yeah.

Dotch (53:01)
Mm.

Yeah, it has to be, it has to be a part of the container. And then one thing that is super fun is as far as like when we were doing the flogging lessons, we were actually literally able to tell every single student, you cannot hit him hard enough to hurt him. And it was with those people, true. I can imagine people or different tools, right? There's different tools. I have a little tattoo and...

Harley (53:12)
Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Dotch (53:38)
and I love it, and if you're using specific tools, have a hard boundary, don't fuck up the dinosaur. Yeah, because I like it, it's a good tattoo.

Harley (53:45)
Don't fuck up the dinosaur.

you don't as in you've got a tattoo that you don't want them to...

Dotch (53:54)
Yeah, I don't want scars on that. So, or even welts really. So yeah, but that is it's very fun to give someone permission to just do everything to lay in. And in a way, that's what I was getting permission from Shelby for during our training. And that's I mean, we had boundaries we had, you know, I knew I wasn't going to be using

Harley (53:59)
Yup.

Mmm.

Dotch (54:21)
all of my strength to throw her across the room. But at the same time, wasn't that that she was giving me full permission for it was it was full permission to be the kind of man that I never am going to be in my whole life. Right. And there's a lot there. That's a weird space and it's new for me and it's pretty powerful. Complicated.

Harley (54:49)
Scary. Complicated. Yeah. It's interesting that you just put it that way that more than the physical permission, it's kind of the emotional permission. Permission to inhabit that headspace. Yeah.

Dotch (54:58)
yeah, it totally is. And I didn't think I would ever do that or get there. I thought if somebody wanted that fantasy that I would do it and not be in it and just kind of do the motions or whatever and or just say no thanks, not doing that. And yeah, yeah.

Harley (55:13)
Right.

Which is totally okay too. If that's not something you want to do, then you shouldn't do it. That's completely fine. Well, I was going to ask you, we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you the difference there between, and maybe we've just answered that actually. I don't know, but you obviously felt like being physically forceful was more comfortable than the verbal degradation.

Dotch (55:21)
Yeah, yeah. So now I just have to do that for verbal degradation just because they're not going to have any fun.

Yeah.

Hmm. Hmm.

Harley (55:45)
do you know why that is? that just because it's that more an emotional space rather than going through the motions or is it different?

Dotch (55:53)
I think I hit a creativity boundary, actually. think it's just, was talking with someone about it at a party last night. There were a couple of friends of mine there and I was telling them about this and one of them said, okay, how about this? The elastic on your undergarments, it's just getting saggy. I mean, I was like, yeah.

Harley (55:56)
okay. I don't know what to say.

Mm.

Dotch (56:23)
I mean, he was being silly, right? He was being very funny, but it's just hard to... I can be physically creative. I can be very physically creative. It's harder on the spot to say bad things about a person. I don't have creativity on saying bad things. Like, I'm looking at you right now and I cannot think of one and a half bad things to say because you're gorgeous and laughing and this is, you know...

Harley (56:33)
Right.

So I would, to speak to that, because what you just said about the saggy elastic, I was like, that is not right. Like, why is that not right? My theory is, as I think, and everyone's different, but for me, because I love a bit of verbal degradation, it's super sexy. But not when it's about my physical appearance or my desirability, right? If you tell me that I look...

Dotch (56:59)
Right. Yeah.

Mmm.

Right... Right...

Harley (57:19)
old or saggy, I'm gonna be like, red? This is not, just no.

Dotch (57:22)
Yes.

Well, and you know what, I think that's part of it is, I think you've just hit on it. The degrading things to say to people are so individualized. If you tell someone that they're not smart, right, they might not think to call red and just start crying and having no fun.

Harley (57:29)
you

yeah. So this is something that we should add to our pre-scene negotiation if we're wanting to play with verbal degradation. So for me, I would want to hear, like my, one of my core desires is being desired and being used, right? And I think that's pretty common. So I want to hear like degrade me through objectifying me. Like I'm so...

Dotch (57:50)
Yeah, what kind of things?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Harley (58:07)
Like I'm a piece of meat that I'm like a piece of fuck me, you know, like that and talk about my body, like really hungrily and in that objectifying manner, like that is what's hitting the sweet spot for me. Or that little bit of condescension in the tone, like you hinted at before with the, with the impact play. is that a bit too much for you? Like, mm hmm.

Dotch (58:09)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so with those two within that space if that's what you want I feel like I could step it up and and give a good show and there's just so much other territory that I mean if I'm talking about you smelling bad because you haven't washed between the last Dom and me or whatever there's no it's just terrible Exactly right, right

Harley (58:47)
Yeah, nah, see that doesn't work for me. Maybe it works for someone, but I'd be like, wait, do I? Because it's not, it's not making me feel desirable. So this is where we, we want to put those core desires at the, that's the filter that we're putting everything through. Yeah.

Dotch (58:57)
And that's it.

Yeah. Well, and that's so something that something that I think is important to know and to think about is if as a coach, I'm mostly working with the female coaches. Most of those somatic coaches are female when they have someone who wants practice with male identified, mellow, safe, playful coach. Sometimes I'm the right person and

Harley (59:16)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (59:28)
Still, I would be very, very surprised if we did anything CNC on the first session.

Harley (59:36)
yeah. Yup.

Dotch (59:37)
it might be the fourth or fifth because when we're preparing, I will be, you know, asking and finding out even, and so I can ask you, what are your boundaries? You may not know all of them, right? We're going to be finding out a little bit because I'm going to be doing what's called boundary mapping. I'm going to be trying to poke a boundary without pushing too hard and upsetting you. So we're going to do some exercises with boundaries. We're also going to do.

Harley (59:57)
Mm-hmm.

Dotch (1:00:06)
bunch with core desires unless you come in already like if your other coach gives me the list and says here are her core desires and spells it out for me that'll save us time for sure. But I would be very surprised if you wanted to do CNC with me in the first couple sessions because you need time. I I won't feel safe if we haven't had time for you to feel safe.

Harley (1:00:18)
Mm.

Dotch (1:00:32)
I needed to figure out and establish whether you are a good girl or a bad girl or a brat. Because that is not really gonna affect what I do, but it's absolutely gonna affect how I do it.

Harley (1:00:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly. Yup. Yeah, there's, it's the, all of those nuances that, we need to help us navigate this territory and make sure that it is hitting our desires and that it is really pleasurable and fun without, hopefully without triggering any of those, boundaries or like not actually upsetting someone. And sometimes it's hard and you're not always going to get that right. But yeah, this, I mean, you're talking about it in a coaching context, but even in a playmate context,

Dotch (1:01:00)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Harley (1:01:17)
You want to have a lot of conversation about this, just to know where you are and to have that, like everything we've been talking about today, to create that safety, to give yourself, know that there's permission. These things are all the pillars that you need to put in place to create that scene and to create an experience that's going to be fun.

Dotch (1:01:39)
Yeah, and your boundaries are gonna change. Your core desires probably won't change that much, but your boundaries are gonna change sometimes as you explore new ground, right? You don't know where to put all the fences when you're still exploring. So, I mean, I certainly didn't.

Harley (1:01:44)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, I mean, you said that CNC was a hard no for you in the beginning and here we are.

Dotch (1:01:59)
It was. And so at some point in the process, lot of one way I like to think about it is a lot of my boundaries became speed bumps. And I can name particular coaches and partners responsible for doing that. But and the cancer treatment did that. Honestly, I had things that were boundaries before. And now the speed bump to me means, all right, this used to be a boundary. I see where it was. When we get there.

I might just need to slow. I still want to do it. I think I still want to do it, but I need to slow down. buddy who was very, very patient because she kept hitting my speed bumps and it made all the difference to me.

Harley (1:02:47)
I love that analogy. It's something you still want to do, but we just need to slow down as we cross it. Yeah.

Dotch (1:02:48)
Hmm.

Uh-huh.

Hmm.

Harley (1:02:57)
Wow, this has been a great chat. I've really enjoyed hearing your perspective and I've learned so much from this conversation.

Dotch (1:03:05)
I love getting to talk to you. like the way that you approach things and you're super comfortable to talk to.

Harley (1:03:13)
that's really good to hear. So before we finish up today, I'd love you to tell our listeners about your services, about what you can offer. Are you looking for clients at the moment or are you just, I know you've got a lot of other stuff going on in your life at the moment.

Dotch (1:03:23)
Hmm?

Yeah, I'm mostly taking clients by referral and I'm really just ramping it up, right? This is figuring out how it works. for now, fees are 100 % donation from the client directly to women's health charities. So you can do your favorite or pick from my list. And I'm planning to do that kind of ongoing just because

part of the reason I'm doing this is to help people find out what turns them on and how to play that out. And the rest of the reason I'm doing it is to try and encourage women, like push back against what men do. I feel a lot of, you know, stuff toward that. so, when, so if you have a coach, if you don't have a coach, ping me on my website. And my website is sexandmischief.coach.

Harley (1:04:22)
I love it. Sexandmischief.coach. I'll put that in the show notes so people can find it there.

Dotch (1:04:23)
And yeah, okay. And you'll see ways to contact me there. And the website is not done yet. I'm still setting it up, but it's fine. It's there. And but if you don't have a coach, I would be happy to help you find the right one because I know like 150 really well. And I've pressed some of them up against the wall and get my ass kicked. And so the and some of them deal with with

Harley (1:04:29)
That's always, yep.

Right.

Dotch (1:04:51)
postpartum, some of them deal with menopause, some of them, they, so I'll help you find the right coach. But also if you have a coach or once you have a coach and they decide that you want to practice with someone like me, then they can absolutely pay me, send you to me. And, and I would love it. I'm, I'm living in the San Francisco Bay area and trying to focus on in-person sessions, but if a remote session will help, that's what I want.

Harley (1:05:16)
right. That's, that's good to know. last question. I always like to ask my guests if they have any book recommendations. So this can be kink related. can be not kink related. It can be fiction, nonfiction, just a book that you would gift someone.

Dotch (1:05:18)
Yeah.

Hmm?

you

Yeah.

I love that you asked this and my recommendation is actually my most recent read and it's sci-fi because I'm a big sci-fi nerd, right? And we already knew this. I made a Star Trek reference in the middle of BDSM talk. So.

Harley (1:05:40)
Mm-hmm.

You did. our listeners can't see your feed right now, but you've got a Lego space shuttle in the background there. That's definitely...

Dotch (1:05:56)
yeah. Yeah, not only a space shuttle, but also the discovery from 2001, which is not everyone's favorite movie, but is mine. So yeah, that's in case you were wondering if this is a nerd, I think we just blew it. So my book recommendation is brand new. It's on this year's Hugo Award nominees list. It's by Emily Tesh and I've been loving female sci-fi writers.

Harley (1:06:03)
Yes.

Yep.

Okay.

Dotch (1:06:24)
lately and it's called some Emily Tash. Yeah T-E-S-H and it's called some desperate glory.

Harley (1:06:26)
Emily Tesh, T-E-S-H, yep.

some desperate glory.

Dotch (1:06:35)
And what I love is that it is big sci-fi. It's like there are lizard aliens who can shift reality out from under you. And it's amazing, far-reaching, giant sci-fi, but also this took me totally by surprise. It's, I'm gonna call it feminist. is women's issues aware sci-fi. Not that it bludgeoned you over the head with it, but you see things.

Harley (1:07:01)
Yeah.

Dotch (1:07:04)
that you actually maybe have encountered in other sci-fi adventure novels and you look at what parts are toxic to women and then they do something about it. And it was so like there's one, there's a scene that I'm not gonna blow where they totally take control and I have never been so satisfied at men getting their asses handed to them. And it was, I was cheering. Like I read that part and I was like, yes. And so,

Harley (1:07:17)
You

Yeah.

Dotch (1:07:34)
Yeah, so Emily Tash, Some Desperate Glory, and I think it's an important book.

Harley (1:07:39)
Well, I'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes. that sounds like something I would enjoy as well. I love, I love sci-fi because it has this beautiful way of speaking about real issues without shoving it down your throat. It's like, you can see the metaphor in there, right? It's like, see what you're talking about here, but yeah.

Dotch (1:07:52)
yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And it takes big human issues and removes some of the physical limitations we have now and plays time forward and now what happens? So yeah, it's my go-to kind of pleasure reading genre.

Harley (1:08:06)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I love it. It's good escapism too. All right. Thank you so much for being on the show, Dutch. I've really enjoyed this interview. I can't wait for all my lovely listeners to hear it. Just before we finish up, just a quick reminder about the CNC workshop this weekend. If you're curious about exploring CNC and you'd like to do a bit of an intro class with that, with me, then you can find a link to that in the show notes. That'll be...

this Saturday, but if you can't make it, there will be a replay. So if you grab a ticket, you'll get a link to the replay. Have you got a ticket? Well, I, I get so nervous when people like when coaches, coaches are watching.

Dotch (1:08:50)
I've got a ticket, by the way. I do, I do, I totally did, of course.

You're nervous because I'm going to lean in and whisper at you.

Harley (1:09:03)
Yeah, I can tell you've got the right voice for that. Alright, I'll leave it there on that note. Thank you so much and thank you everyone for listening. Till next time, play safe, have fun and I will catch you soon.