#78: Religious Shame, BDSM, and the Psychology of Power – With Shelby Devlin

In this episode of Turns Out I’m Into It, I’m joined by the incredible Shelby Devlin, a sex and intimacy coach with nearly a decade of experience specializing in BDSM and kink. With a master's degree in sexuality studies and a role as an advanced instructor at the Somatica Institute, Shelby brings a wealth of knowledge to our conversation.

We dive into two powerful topics:
🔹 Religious shame & sexuality – How religious conditioning shapes our sexual identities, and how to reclaim pleasure while maintaining faith.
🔹 The psychology of dominance & submission – Why BDSM is a form of psychological eroticism, and how understanding power dynamics can deepen trust and connection.

Shelby shares her personal journey into kink, how she helps clients navigate shame, and why pleasure is the antidote to shame. We also discuss 24/7 dynamics, the importance of trust in BDSM, and the real difference between dominance and just being selfish. Plus, Shelby gives us a sneak peek into her upcoming book on BDSM!

If you’ve ever struggled with internalized shame, questioned your desires, or wanted to deepen your understanding of power exchange, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

🔗 Resources & Mentions:
📖 Sleeping Beauty series by Anne Rice
📖 Tell Me What You Want by Justin Lehmiller
📖 A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas
🌐 Find Shelby at shelbydevlin.com

🔥 Loved this episode? Leave a 5-star review and share it with your kinky friends!

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Transcript

Harley (00:13)
Hey, hey friends, it is Harley Rabbit here. Welcome back to another episode of Turns Out I'm Into It, the show all about helping you discover your kinky self and live your best sex life.

Today, I am honored to have Shelby Devlin with us. Shelby is a sex and intimacy coach with over nine years of experience specializing in BDSM and kink.

With a master's degree in sexuality studies and her role as an advanced instructor at Somatica Institute, she has a wealth of knowledge and experience to offer us today. So when researching with this episode, it was actually really difficult because she has so much experience in this space. And there were so many different rabbit holes we could go down. But for today's conversation, I've decided to focus on two areas. The first one is...

religious shame around sexuality, which I know is a passion of Shelby's and something we haven't discussed on this show before. And also the psychological aspects of dominance and submission, which is always a very juicy topic. So I know we're to have a really great chat today. Shelby, welcome to the show.

Shelby Devlin (01:26)
Thank you, Harley. I'm really happy to be here.

Harley (01:30)
We are so happy to have you. Before we jump into all that stuff, I would love to just start by learning a little bit about you and your journey into kink, both personally and professionally.

Shelby Devlin (01:42)
okay. What a journey it has been. Honestly, my interest in kink developed really early on and I'm not exactly sure what the trigger was. But at a very young age, I was tying my Barbies up. There was abduction. There was some rape of Barbie. It was, it got

Harley (01:58)
Okay.

Wow.

Wow.

Shelby Devlin (02:11)
pretty dark in my Barbie play. And I'm not really sure where that came from, but I was like very interested in my Barbies being abducted and tied up and having like bad things done to them. And then at around age 14, I discovered Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty series. Are you familiar?

Harley (02:21)
Yeah.

Not really well,

Shelby Devlin (02:36)
Okay, so Anne Rice, she wrote Interview with the Vampire and under a pen name, she wrote this three part series of Sleeping Beauty. It was erotic fantasy. She actually wrote a fourth book like in the late 2000s or so, you know, like way later, like decades later, and it just like wasn't as good. But the first three are amazing. And the first three are just some like really fantastic

Harley (02:38)
she wrote Interviews of Vampires. That's right, yep. Under a pen name, she wrote this three-part series of Clicking Beauty with lot of fantasy. She actually wrote a fourth book, like, in the late 2000s.

Yep.

Shelby Devlin (03:08)
hardcore BDSM, heavy on bondage, know, Sleeping Beauty is abducted. There is a lot of sadomasochism. And so at age 14, I was literally bringing those books to school and hiding them in my textbook and reading them in class. And this one time I got up to use the restroom. And when I came back, this guy that was sitting next to me looks at me and he's like, what the

Harley (03:14)
Wow. Wow.

Shelby Devlin (03:34)
fuck are you reading? Don't be touching my shit. So that that interest was like seems really innate. And it was something I started to like, fantasize and learn about kind of on my own through first play and then through like reading erotica. But it wasn't until my late teens that I started to seek out

Harley (03:38)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (04:01)
you know, kind of like BDSM and kink with partners. And the first couple of times I requested anything like kinky or out of the realm of vanilla, I was like shamed and judged and like my, you know, I dated only men at the time and they would like freak out probably cause it felt insecure. But there was like something in me that even though they were like shaming me and judging me, I was like, you know what? I think it's your problem.

I think there's something wrong with you that you don't want to like do these things with

Harley (04:29)
Yes.

Shelby Devlin (04:31)
me. I don't think there's anything wrong with me. So I'm just going to like keep moving on and exploring. So eventually, by the age of 20, I moved to San Francisco and you know, I met the right people and was in the right situations. And that's when I started to actually fully explore BDSM with partners in like a regular way. Like I did a couple of like, you know, kinky things when I, my hometown is Sacramento.

Harley (04:36)
Wow.

Yep.

Shelby Devlin (04:57)
So like when I was dating after I graduated high school, I did a couple of kinky things, but I didn't really like, know, gain momentum. Yeah, until I moved to San Francisco.

Harley (05:04)
fully embrace it. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and it sounds like meet other people who actually had some experience or the same interests as you as well.

Shelby Devlin (05:15)
Yeah, certainly

the same interests. Like I've played with people, especially starting out people that were complete novices like myself, people that had some experience, people that were like very experienced. And I do want to say that just because you've been doing something for a long time doesn't mean you're doing it right or doing it well. Right. And so there's been a lot of like variation and experience. And that's something that I like really try and hit home for clients when they're trying to do something new, even if it's not BDSM or kink related, even if it's just something

Harley (05:22)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (05:44)
in the sexual realm, people feel like embarrassed. They're like, I should know how to do this already. like, eh, you know, like, but learning, yeah, it takes time. It takes a lot of time to gain mastery.

Harley (05:45)
Yeah.

It takes time.

Yeah. And that's, I love that point about just because you've been doing something a long time doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it well. That makes me think of a few, a few characters I've met who shall remain nameless that are very sure of themselves and are not doing a great job. that, yeah, it's not a good attitude. think having that humility and always being willing to learn is such a great way to approach this.

Shelby Devlin (06:05)
Yeah.

Right, right.

Absolutely. I think our openness to learning, even if it's not learning a particular skill, but learning what works for individuals, goes a long way when you're trying to be a great lover or master esoteric skills in the BDSM realm.

Harley (06:34)
Yeah.

Yeah. And as you said, what works for individuals, that makes me think of it. You almost have to relearn everything when you play with a new person, because everyone's going to have very different desires and boundaries and things like that. So yeah, having that openness. Yeah. I'm so impressed by you saying, like that, those early experiences of, wanting to explore this space and having, like being shamed for that.

Shelby Devlin (06:57)
Absolutely.

Harley (07:11)
I can think of a few times where that happened in my life and I was not quite so confident with my desires and that actually made it really hard for me to speak up and ask for it again. But it sounds like you had this like, sureness inside you of like, no, this is, this is me and this is what I want and this is okay. Do you know where that came from?

Shelby Devlin (07:35)
You know, that's something that I've thought a lot about and I actually was talking to my partner about this recently because I have not historically had the best self-esteem. I did not grow up in an environment in which I felt, you know, encouraged to respect myself and to trust myself. And for some reason,

Harley (07:45)
Mm.

Shelby Devlin (08:00)
sexuality has always been really useful for me and I felt a lot of confidence and trust in myself in that realm. And no one taught me that, certainly the sex conversations that I had with my parents, really very bare bones. Yeah, but they weren't shaming. So I do have to like give my parents credit. They were not sexually shaming.

Harley (08:18)
Yeah, as most of them are, I think.

Shelby Devlin (08:28)
they were more neutral, if anything. They're like, you're gonna do it eventually, so just like, be safe, you know, don't get pregnant, like condoms, good talk, no eye contact, you know. Yeah, thinking back on it, was like, you know, they really tried and like knowing my parents as an adult now, like that was like way outside their comfort zone, both of them. So I'm like really proud of them for doing that. you know, anyway.

Harley (08:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (08:55)
So what I've come up with is that I felt so small and restricted in my daily life that my core desires kind of developed as a reaction to this like restriction and disempowerment. And so in the sexual realm, it was a place that my family couldn't go with me. And so I think that freedom from my

Harley (09:10)
Hmm.

Shelby Devlin (09:25)
family and the adults around me is where I like really met my true self in my sexuality because the one part of my personality and development that they just like didn't have a part of and so that's where my self-assuredness and my intelligence and my comfort with my body and my pleasure like really came out when I started to explore my sexual self like as an adolescent and then certainly in my 20s 30s

Harley (09:30)
Yeah.

That just gave me goosebumps. think I could relate to that myself, hearing you speak about that. I've never actually thought about it that way in that it's, it is your domain and you are free from all of those. Like if, if you've had family that have shamed you or not so much encouraged your self-esteem or exploration, like this is a private space where you can really discover yourself and be free from, from all of that.

Shelby Devlin (10:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. I also want to say that I'm very lucky and very privileged that I wasn't, you know, harmed by my family and I wasn't harmed as a child. And so I didn't have to deal with that, you know, wound and processing and healing. So that could pose a barrier to people that otherwise would have found this like freedom and empowerment in their sexuality. So I do feel, I feel very lucky and there is a lot of privilege and like

Harley (10:50)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (10:55)
basically coming out of my childhood relatively unscathed, as much as a young woman can be unscathed from childhood in the sexual realm.

Harley (11:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right

Yeah. And I'm so glad because it sounds like you've really found yourself and your calling, you've obviously gone into kink in sexuality as part of your career now. So what prompted that decision?

Shelby Devlin (11:25)
So when I started out as a Somatica coach over nine years ago, close to 10 now, and I encourage new coaches and new therapists to kind of follow in my footsteps a little bit in this regard of like work with everyone, right? Even if you think you have an idea of who you really wanna work with or what you would be best at.

Harley (11:45)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (11:51)
work with everyone because you're going to learn a lot more dealing with lots of different people and lots of different problems and lots of different goals. And so at the beginning I was like working with everyone and I had an idea that I wanted to be more involved in Kink and BDSM because that was where my personal interest lies. But also because I... How do I...

Harley (12:04)
I wanted to more involved in taking videos now because that's my personal life is.

Shelby Devlin (12:18)
I don't want to, I'm trying to like sugarcoat this and maybe I shouldn't. It's two things. One, I get bored. I just get bored easily. Especially when you're dealing with the same issues day in and day out, it can become such a slog. Even when, you know, I do feel like I'm making the world a better place with every client, every session. And I do get bored. But

Harley (12:21)
No, give us the hard truth.

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (12:48)
The something else that I noticed about myself before I started doing this work, you know, like in my teens and twenties was that I had this gift of making people feel safe and accepted. And so all of my lovers, almost all my lovers, can't, know, a hundred percent accuracy, but the majority of my lovers have told me at some point that they've never felt as safe or as trusting with someone.

And that they have told me things that they never told anyone before and they asked for things that they had never felt safe asking for and that they you know, they knew that I wasn't gonna shame them or judge them. They just knew and so something that really turns me on is making people's dreams come true. So when someone shares something that they've never done that they really want to do I want to like, you know, help them explore that and so I was just doing that for free.

Harley (13:42)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (13:48)
for over a day, Harley, just for free, just giving it away. And so a lot of that

ends up being like, know, kind of counterculture desires, kinky desires, BDSM desires. And every time someone shared something like that with me, I was like, yeah, that's fucking cool. Let's try that. You know, it's been like, I can think of two instances in which I was like a hard no, and I didn't react well.

Harley (14:05)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (14:14)
But to be fair, it was in a long-term relationship and there was other emotional stuff going on, right? But I've never had a bad reaction with a client. So when I started my practice and people were bringing kinkier BDSM things to me and they were like so full of shame and so like full of self-loathing and judgment. And I was just like, that's cool. Or I've done that before or we should totally figure that out. I was like, this is it.

Harley (14:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (14:41)
This is where I'm supposed to be in this realm, you know, of like all the weird stuff, the fun stuff, the dark stuff. I'm designed for that stuff.

Harley (14:44)
Yep.

Yeah. That it sounds like that's your superpower. Like the fact that you were doing it for free for so long tells me that this is what you love and what you're genuinely good at. and isn't it so beautiful to be able to, to give that to the world. Cause I think the world needs more. I don't know people because there is so much shame around. You need people to celebrate your desires, to show you it's okay to lean into that. And, cause there's.

Shelby Devlin (14:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Harley (15:21)
There's a lot of fun on the other side of that. If you can get through the shame, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (15:23)
Yes, yes, there is a lot of fun to be had and so much pleasure. Absolutely.

If you can get through the barriers.

Harley (15:34)
Yeah. So one of the, one of your main areas of expertise is around religious shame and how it affects, impacts people's sexuality. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like how does religion tend to impact sexuality? How does it tend to cause shame? Where does this come from?

Shelby Devlin (15:58)
Cool.

People who grew up in strict religious environments or really conservative environments that had elements of like religious dogma often have this like really intense discomfort with sex, their body, pleasure, orgasm, even when they're doing it in the right way, know, heterosexual, monogamous marriage, trying to procreate or like...

Harley (16:25)
it

Shelby Devlin (16:31)
you know, strengthen the bond of their union. Even then sex feels icky or scary or weird. And so, you know, sometimes it's like a lack of information about sex and there's just some like social programming, but then sometimes it's like actual programming around like sex is bad, it's dirty, it's ugly, you know, it's wrong to want it. And gender plays a part in the like

religious doctrine and dogma. But the end result is often the same. the result is not gendered. Discomfort is like equal for men and women and non binary people when it comes to religious shame. And so what I found is, since for these individuals, religion just permeated every

Harley (17:04)
Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (17:31)
every facet of their life. There's nothing untouched by religion. It's really hard to tease it out of the sexual realm even when you're no longer practicing your faith.

Harley (17:34)
Mm.

Yeah, okay. So those, I guess, cultural beliefs are running really deep into people's, I guess, the way they view the world of what is right and wrong and what is good and what is bad.

Shelby Devlin (17:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, and even when they

know as an adult that what they're doing isn't wrong and it could or should be pleasurable or fun and they're not having fun, then there's this added layer of feeling broken, you know, or stunted. There's a lot of embarrassment that like, no, I shouldn't be having this problem. I should be able to have sex with my husband or wife and it should be great.

Harley (18:16)
Mm.

Shelby Devlin (18:28)
because they were told that that's the only time it would be great and it should just be easy. If you really love each other, it'll just be easy because God will make it easy for you. Right, right. And so, you know, and this is for people that just like, you know, cis, heterosexual, monogamous, like it poses a huge challenge. But then if you go outside of that and if you're like queer or gay or if you're kinky

Harley (18:34)
of course. It's, if only it were that simple, yeah.

Shelby Devlin (18:56)
or if your fantasies are like darker, then there's like real existential crisis and shame and fear.

Harley (19:06)
absolutely. I mean, yeah, if you're already saying that shame shows up when you are having sex in the air quotes here right way. I can only imagine that being tenfold when you are, when you have desires that are outside of the norm, which I think a lot of people do. I think that's a real, it's really misleading that that is the normal way to be when I think most of us have

Shelby Devlin (19:15)
Mm-hmm.

Harley (19:35)
at least some desires that are a little bit different or a little bit less acceptable than the romantic heterosexual narrative. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (19:45)
Absolutely. mean, BDSM and power exchange is like the second most common fantasy in the United States. The first is multi-partner set.

Harley (19:56)
so much. Yeah!

Shelby Devlin (19:57)
Right? Which is like really,

I don't know if you're familiar with Justin Lay Miller's book, Tell Me What You Want. He's a, yeah, he's a sex researcher in the United States and it's a great book. Highly recommend to anyone who wants to learn more about like what people really want.

Harley (20:05)
No, I'll write that down.

Actually, I think I do know this one briefly. I haven't read it though, so thank you for reminding me. I'll put that in the show notes as well, many of these resources that you mentioned. So I guess my next question is, is there a way for people to still hold onto their faith and have a fulfilling sex life? Is that possible?

Shelby Devlin (20:39)
Yes, absolutely it is possible, but it takes a lot of work.

Harley (20:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (20:45)
It's a lot of work. Because it's separating your faith and your own relationship with a higher power as you see it. And the messaging that you've got around sexuality in your own body and starting to heal that messaging and that wound without making your faith the villain. And that's a delicate balance, right? So it's one thing for me to come into a session with like

Harley (20:53)
Mm-hmm.

Oof. Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (21:14)
deeply religious people and be like, well, God doesn't exist or that religion is wrong or like, it's bad for you and all that's fucked up. What happened to you? That's not gonna be helpful, right? That attack on something that is important to them, their value is not gonna foster like trust and safety. And so,

Harley (21:21)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (21:41)
One of the places that I typically start is helping them tease out like, what do you think sex and relationships should be like? What do you think your relationship to your body could be like if you weren't feeling these negative feelings right now?

Harley (21:59)
Right. So you're getting them to tell you, like actually ask themselves rather than what they've been told to believe. Is that the approach? Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (22:06)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Like, okay, you're coming in with these like negative beliefs, are there, can you fantasize about like positive beliefs that you might like to have, you know, or work towards. And so then it's like, you know, also separating the, the language of the messaging and, and teasing out what feelings it triggers and doing a little bit of like, parts work.

Harley (22:17)
Mm.

Shelby Devlin (22:36)
or internal family systems work around like different belief systems. And again, like, you know, supporting them, like God doesn't, God is not gonna hurt you or punish you or disavow you because you have desire or pleasure, you know, like naturalizing it, normalizing it. It's a slow process.

Harley (22:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. There's, there's a lot to unpack in that. And I think you alluded to this before that even when people can rationally understand it or they, they feel okay about their desires and understand that that's okay. But then it's like that more deeper level or subconscious level that you've got to speak to and, and convince that it is okay. So they feel it, right? Not just understand it on an intellectual level. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (23:29)
Absolutely. And I think, you know, especially when we go to therapy, a lot of us are looking for that aha moment or that like, you have an epiphany or you have a breakthrough moment and you're like, my life is going to be completely different going, you know, from here forward. And the painful truth is, that that's not how therapy really works. And sometimes we're lucky enough to have that aha moment, you know, in our lives and it might not even happen in therapy, but for the most part, it's a trudge.

Harley (23:37)
Yeah.

Mm.

Shelby Devlin (23:57)
It's a lot of, you know, it's a trench. It's practicing and slow movement forward and then a couple steps back and then a step forward, right? It's not like a linear progression. It's a wave of healing. And so kind of setting the expectation that this is, we're gonna ride the wave together. We're not gonna just be on a roller coaster that just goes straight up.

Harley (23:58)
It's a trudge? Yeah.

Mm.

Yes.

that is the reality that it is going to take time. It's not going to be easy. And, yeah, it's not like there's some secret answer that's just going to unlock everything and make it all better. but yeah, understanding that, that therapy and coaching and, all self-development is, it's a long slog, as you say, this change is slow, right? Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (24:46)
Yeah, change is slow.

It happens very slowly over time, tiny, tiny changes. But I do believe that pleasure can heal shame.

Harley (24:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, okay, tell me more about that.

Shelby Devlin (25:00)
So not just carnal pleasure or physical pleasure, but the pleasure of experiencing yourself in a different way or having someone join you in your pleasure or excitement or joy, someone supporting you in your pleasure, your emotional and psychological pleasure, having pleasurable sexual experiences with your partner, experiencing their pleasure and excitement, all of that is really healing.

Harley (25:12)
Mmm.

Shelby Devlin (25:27)
you have all these good experiences and over time they really aggregate and then you have like something like very real to compare this like negative programming to.

Harley (25:38)
Absolutely. Yeah. So for me, what it sounds like you're talking about is that acceptance of like someone joining you in this and someone seeing you for real and not judging you or shaming you and actually enjoying that with you. that real world experience where you can feel what it's like to be accepted, not just theoretically, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Shelby Devlin (25:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, feeling acceptance, experiencing

the acceptance.

Harley (26:09)
Yeah, and then suddenly you've got some evidence that you've experienced to hold up against those old beliefs or those old attitudes.

Shelby Devlin (26:19)
Yes, exactly. So it's not

just like your coach or your therapist telling you, you have experiences that you can call upon when that like negative voice is in your head of like, don't do that, that's wrong or, you know, shameful and be like, well, it was really good that last time or my partner really enjoyed that experience or Shelby said it's okay. So maybe it's okay, right?

Harley (26:31)
Yes. Yeah.

You're right.

Yeah. Yeah,

absolutely. So this, this whole process, it sounds like, you're really empowering clients to make their own choices around their beliefs. And I love this approach because I think my pet hate is, I mean, not, to, what's the word, like not to shame anybody else, anybody's beliefs or religions, but what I don't like is when people.

Shelby Devlin (27:07)
Mm-hmm.

Harley (27:10)
impose their own views on others. think as intelligent humans, the best thing that we can do and the best thing for the world is for us to be constantly holding our own beliefs up to be questioned and be like, is this the right thing for me? Is this thing I believe even true? Is this judgment correct? And to always stay really open-minded and curious and figure out our own path.

Shelby Devlin (27:15)
Mm-hmm.

Harley (27:40)
So you're sort of speaking about this, well, we're speaking about this in the context of religion, but I think even in the context of anything that has judgment. like kink, for example, is very taboo to just be able to challenge that belief of like, kink is wrong or kink is weird. You're like, hang on, do I think that, or is that just what I've been told to believe? And really giving yourself permission to explore.

and challenge your own beliefs. That's kind of where I'm going with this rant. Yep. Yeah, beautiful. Please, please.

Shelby Devlin (28:12)
Yes, I'm right there with you. I agree.

When, and can I say one more thing about that? So

something that can be challenging for coaches and therapists and people like in helping professions to remember is that, you know, we're there to like help people, you know, have the kind of lives that they want to have and support them in choosing their own path forward and their own values. And it's like way beyond my scope.

or my professional sphere to be judging anyone about their religion. Sure, I have my personal beliefs and I certainly have my opinions, but there's no benefit necessarily to sharing my perspective about someone's faith, right? And if you get outside of the realm of faith, job choice or even partner choice.

As long as no one's being harmed, it's like we all get to decide, you know, how we're going to play this game.

Harley (29:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful.

So on that note, and I am gonna ask you for your opinion now, even though you just said not to, but I'm curious with your experience, are there any changes that you would like to see in religious communities or religious institutions when it comes to sex and relationships?

Shelby Devlin (29:56)
I think, I mean, the biggest one would be, you know...

Stop harming children. You know, that's like an obvious one for me, not just in the Catholic church, but in, Jehovah's Witness communities and Mormon communities, Christian science communities, a lot of different flavors of Christianity and Islam and...

conservative Jewish communities in the East Coast, like children, particularly girls, but boys as well, are sexually harmed. And it's like this kind of like dirty secret and borderline like religious practice in a lot of communities. And it's abhorrent. It's a problem. And these communities can be really insulated and protect the perpetrators of these crimes, mostly older men, you know, that are causing this harm.

but women also are participating in the harm by upholding this container and not protecting children from these men in power who are abusing tiny humans. Yeah, abusing that position, abusing that power, abusing faith.

Harley (31:10)
position.

Yeah, that's a big one.

Shelby Devlin (31:18)
and

you know kind of co-opting God or a higher power for nefarious purposes. It's disgusting.

Harley (31:29)
Yeah, absolutely is disgusting. And I think that's a really powerful subject to raise. And it sounds like that work, like that change starts with not accepting that or speaking up or not to stop protecting people who are doing the wrong thing and start protecting those who can't protect themselves.

Shelby Devlin (31:56)
Absolutely, absolutely. But I think one of the facets of organized religion that is really a tough pill for me to swallow is the use of control and power to keep people in line and in the faith. that is most of the time it's used for harm. It's not used to take care of people or protect them. It's used to keep them in line.

Harley (32:06)
Mm.

Mm.

Yeah. I can't help but think of this about like when you're talking about control and power and when I think about kink, it's like, we use control and power a lot in kink, but it's always imperative that we do that. So it's done with agency. so everybody involved is actually empowered to play in this space and we're not actually manipulating people or harming them.

Shelby Devlin (32:44)
Mm-hmm.

Harley (32:56)
So to see that in the real world, so to speak, done so poorly where people are abusing their power is, I can just see the harm that's being done there. And it just feels so wrong.

Shelby Devlin (33:12)
It is wrong. And it's not every religious person and it's not every religious community, you know. So if anyone's listening to this and they're like, well, not us you know, that's great. Keep it that way. Yes, exactly. Or, you know, like look out for people.

Harley (33:17)
of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Keep setting a good example. Yeah.

Yeah, look out for people. And that goes across, it doesn't matter what faith you are or what community you belong to.

Shelby Devlin (33:38)
Yes, exactly. All communities should look out for people.

Harley (33:46)
All right. Well, I think I will leave the religious shame stuff there. That was really enlightening to speak to you about that. Thank you. Yeah. So the next thing I wanted to ask you about is the psychological side of dominance and submission, which I read on your website, which is so beautiful, by the way. I'm a bit of a web design nerd, so.

Shelby Devlin (33:54)
Thank you for asking your questions.

Thank you.

Harley (34:15)
just like, wow, this is great. My nerdy side coming out there. But you say on your website that one of the ways that we can understand dominance and submission is to think of it as psychological eroticism. And I just loved this phrase. So can you tell us about what you mean by that psychological eroticism?

Shelby Devlin (34:39)
Yeah, I'm actually excited to talk about this because I kind of like developed that idea more in the book that I'm writing, which we can talk about later. The psychological eroticism is basically role play. It's adults playing pretend.

Harley (34:46)
yes.

Shelby Devlin (34:56)
Most, kids at some point in their childhood, like pretended to be something else or someone else, whether it's when you're in costume for Halloween or pretending to be an animal or pretending to go on an adventure, right? That form of play is familiar to us. And as adults, one of the ways that we can actually do that, especially in the sexual realm is through role play. And DS is role play. It starts here, right? We think about the role.

Harley (35:23)
Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (35:26)
or the scenario that we want to inhabit or experience. And then we kind of tease out details or ways to make it feel more real or authentic. And so when we're playing with dominance and submission, we are playing pretend. We are pretending that someone has more power than the other. But when we don't play pretend, when we take that away, ideally, you know,

two adults have equal power. That's like the, at least that's a fundamental tenet of the Western world. It's not really true, really, unfortunately, but it is certainly true that people believe it to be true and that's like a part of our society and culture. And so we're taking this, know, this agency and power and control and we're

playing a game of pretend with it, where there's different rules and different expectations.

Harley (36:31)
Yeah. I love that you are framing this as pretend too, because that is such a fundamental difference. And I think, like from the outside, this is why a lot of people might get the wrong idea when it comes to, to DS. They think it's abusive. They think it's harmful, but it's when it's done well, then it is pretend and we all understand that it's pretend. It's not, it's not real. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (36:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and you might have some listeners that are in a 24-7 dynamic, and this is when people commit to pretending that they're in a DS relationship or being in a DS relationship for those roles 24-7. But I do want to point out that that's just an extension of the game of pretend. And when it comes down to it, someone can stop the game at any time and they can leave. And like the contract,

Harley (37:04)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (37:29)
that are often like included in 24 seven dynamics. They're not legally binding, you know, if a police officer walks into your home and you're in a cage and the dominant says, oh, they're my submissive, like, it's all good. And the submissive is like, actually, I would like to leave now. Thank you. Then the submissive, exactly. The submissive is gonna get their way, right?

Harley (37:32)
Mm-hmm.

You

Sorry, you signed a contract.

Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (37:57)
And that's where like the container is of BDSM and DS and role play. There's like a fantasy container, you know, a psychological container that we choose to put ourselves in when we're engaging in kink or role play or power exchange.

Harley (38:06)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. And thank you for raising the 24 seven dynamic, example of this, because that's something I don't have personal experience with. And I don't always know how to speak to it, but, I guess is there a worry there with, with 24 seven that, cause you know how you can, you really get into a subspace or you can really kind of lose yourself in this mindset. And I worry that if it, it's all the time, like is it.

then more difficult to remember, wait, I do have power and this is pretend. Like, do you think people can lose themselves in that state more easily when it is 24-7?

Shelby Devlin (39:02)
I do think that it's easier to lose yourself when it's 24-7, but a lot of people want to be lost.

Harley (39:06)
Mm.

Yes.

Shelby Devlin (39:11)
that doesn't necessarily mean that they're experiencing harm.

Harley (39:16)
Okay.

Shelby Devlin (39:18)
And typically the people that I encounter that do have a 24-7 agreement, they're coming to me because they need help because something's not working right. And to me, that's a good sign because even if they're still in the 24-7 dynamic, you know, they've identified that something doesn't feel good and they feel empowered or they have enough agency to seek support so that they can relax further back into the dynamic.

Harley (39:44)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (39:49)
Certainly there are bad actors out there and people that are exploitative and will do harm because they can get away with it. But I can't speak to if being in a 24-7 dynamic opens you up to being harmed more so than a vanilla relationship with someone who has a temper.

Harley (39:51)
Yeah.

That's a very good point. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (40:13)
It really depends on the people.

Harley (40:16)
It really depends on the people and I think genuinely wanting to take care of each other, Yeah. Regardless of what side of the dynamic you're on. That's, I love that you raised that, that's that some people want to be lost. I guess, um, that is kind of the point in, in, uh, being a submissive is to just be able to let go and get, feel detached from all the other stuff you've got going on in your life. Um.

Shelby Devlin (40:18)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah.

Certainly.

Harley (40:46)
Yeah, and I guess that that is the psychological element that is so important in kink is allowing people to really inhabit this new mindset.

Shelby Devlin (41:01)
Yes, yes, that is a key aspect.

Harley (41:02)
Yeah.

I'm going to come back to that in a second, but I do want to ask you about, you mentioned there people who are in 24 seven dynamics coming to you for support. And I wonder if it's the opposite that they are feeling like they're not able to lose themselves in that dynamic or something isn't working there. So it's instead of them being like, I'm too lost and I feel like I don't know who I am anymore. Maybe they're coming to you because they're.

I'm having trouble losing myself in this and I want to be able to increase the dynamic more. is that, I don't know if this is, if I'm interpreting this right. Okay. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (41:38)
Mm-hmm.

I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. Yes. So

the clients that I work with around 24 seven dynamics, they're like, they either want to enter one and they want to do it ethically, you know, with good boundaries and limits. And so I helped them through that process of building a contract and doing all the negotiation. But I've also worked with people that were already in 24 seven dynamics for years. And then something's changed or it's not feeling filling anymore. And they need some support around that.

Harley (41:56)
Yep.

Right.

Right.

Shelby Devlin (42:12)
I

haven't met someone out in the world who's like in a 24 seven dynamic and they're like completely lost themselves. And I'm like, you need help. I haven't experienced that. Are those people out there? Probably, but they're not seeking help and I haven't met them.

Harley (42:23)
Wow.

Yeah, they're probably not seeking help though.

Yeah. No, that's that. you for clarifying that. Cause I think that paints a bit of a different picture than what I was expecting, I guess. And I'm sure maybe some of our listeners are expecting as well. All right. So let's, let's dive in a little bit deeper with the mindset and getting lost in that mindset. what are some ways that, people who are wanting to, to focus more on the psychological side?

what are some ways that they can do that? Cause I think a lot of people get distracted by the, the, the technique or the costumes or whatever it is, all the external stuff. But if they're wanting to really, either help their partner get into subspace or dom space or help themselves get into that, that head space, what are some ways you would advise them just to, to explore that?

Shelby Devlin (43:08)
Mm-hmm.

I mean, the best way is communication skills. It's communicating like before a scene happens or an activity happens, like what you want to feel and what you want to get out of it. And like, what is the vibe, right? What are we chasing here? The more you can communicate in detail about what your needs are and what will light you up, the more likely it that you're going to be able to experience that. And from what I can tell, people that have like the

Harley (43:29)
Okay.

Mm.

Shelby Devlin (43:56)
best kind of DS, BDSM experiences. Their partners are really good at communicating ahead of time, like what they want and what the limits are and where we're going with this. also the communication in the scene keeps them really connected and in some cases grounded. And so when I'm training a new dominant, we get into energetics and communication.

Harley (44:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Shelby Devlin (44:24)
you know, like how to use your dominant voice and how to have a dominant presence before we get into how to use tools and paraphernalia and pageantry, right? Anyone could put on a leather outfit and hit someone with a flogger, right? But not anyone could walk into a room in street clothes, look someone in the eye and look at the ground and have them submit. That's what dominance is.

Harley (44:35)
Yeah

ride.

Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (44:50)
dominance is not hitting someone

or dressing up in a crazy costume. But that's what we see in pop culture. And so that's what people replicate. They get the gear, they get the outfit and they're like doing it and they're like, this doesn't feel good. This is not working, you know? And like their partner's like hit me hard and they're like, I can't, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't want to or you know, a lot of people, especially particularly like sis.

Harley (45:01)
Yep.

Yeah

Shelby Devlin (45:20)
het men approach dominance as just being selfish and they're like, I'm just going to throw you around and like, fuck you the way I want to and now I'm dominant. And then that really leaves a lot of women feeling like, well, that wasn't great. You know, like, wasn't, yeah, I wasn't, didn't, didn't really hit the spot, but they can't communicate like what it is that's missing or what they want, you know, and their partner can get really frustrated because they're like doing dominance.

Harley (45:28)
Mm-hmm.

wasn't quite what I meant, yeah.

Right. So tell me more about that. How do you work with people to find their dominant voice and to tap into that energy?

Shelby Devlin (45:57)
We talk to each other a lot in session. And so I'll demonstrate like my dominant energy and my dominant voice. And just, you know, for context, I am like just shy of five, four, I'm 120 pounds. Like I'm a petite person. You know, I am not throwing anyone around. You know, most of my clients and most of my partners are all bigger than me. It's just like how it is.

Harley (46:08)
Hmm.

Shelby Devlin (46:27)
And yet, I tend to get my way. And I don't have to use physical force. So I demonstrate what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who is in control and empowered, and someone that you can trust to take you on a wild ride. So first, I teach people to submit by being

Harley (46:31)
I'll bet you do.

Shelby Devlin (46:55)
and impeccable and masterful dominant. And so they get to experience how good that feels, you know, to trust that like, I've got this covered, they don't need to worry about anything, you know, they get to have the experiences of being contained, you know, in the fantasy. And then we talk about what I did and why it worked. And then I have them systematically replicate.

what I demonstrate. So, you know, notice how I got in closer to your ear when I whispered this, I did this because of this reason, right? And then I, and then they start practicing on me. So they practice with their energy and eye contact and how they move close to my body, move far away from my body before they're even touching me. I need to feel like they're in control, no matter who they are.

Harley (47:32)
Mm.

Shelby Devlin (47:48)
And so we work on that for sessions and get them to a place where they're starting to feel confident, you know, not worrying about what comes next or what activities, but like cultivating that dominant presence.

Harley (48:04)
Yeah. So it, really feels like, you're helping them like, it feels like trust. You said that a few times and it feels like trust is a real central idea to this dynamic so that the submissive can trust that this person who's playing that dominant role, they can trust that they've got this and that they can let go and just give in and be, as you said, contained and to get to that trust.

Shelby Devlin (48:18)
Okay.

Yes.

Harley (48:34)
To be able to project that trust, sounds like that comes from slowing down and being in a place of confidence.

Shelby Devlin (48:34)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah, and demonstrating that you're trustworthy.

Harley (48:45)
yeah, I love that. Okay. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (48:47)
Right?

So everyone, everyone really wants to feel like everything's going to be okay. And that someone.

can like step in if they need help, like someone has their back, right? And this really shows up in DS dynamics, in which, you know, a lot of my submissives are like, you know, six, three and 200 pounds, right? And so they're used to being like the, you know, the person in charge in the room or the person that people look to for like safety or like to know what's up.

Harley (49:01)
yeah.

Right.

Shelby Devlin (49:27)
make it to have the experience of just like being held and like, oh, yeah, I've got this, you know, I'm going to take care of you, everything is going to be fine. And it's like my confidence and my calm and my control how relaxed I am in it, that makes me seem trustworthy, right? They feel safe with me to explore these vulnerable things. But when you're like yelling and pushing people around, it can be like overwhelming and that doesn't

Harley (49:40)
Mm.

Mm.

Absolutely.

Shelby Devlin (49:57)
read a lot of like safety and trust. So it's harder for people to relax, right? Certainly there are people that really respond to sadism and violence. Absolutely. But if you're, if you're playing in a way that is sustainable and which you don't really want to be harmed, you need to build some like trust and safety with someone. So you're like, okay, like they could pretend to be angry, you know, and push me around.

Harley (50:01)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. But you can, as you said,

give into that fantasy and enjoy it because you're not worried, genuinely worried for your safety, right? Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (50:24)
Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

Harley (50:31)
I love that. Yeah, I think even when my partner and I play, he, his process of learning has really been about learning to slow down and that it's okay to take your time and that I'm like happy to sit there and wait as well. And that builds anticipation for me, you know, while he decides what we're going to do or while he chooses what implement or whatever it is. It sounds like, yeah.

Shelby Devlin (50:57)
Mm-hmm.

Harley (51:00)
being able to slow down and relax and demonstrate that you are in control of yourself and the situation. That feels...

Shelby Devlin (51:08)
Absolutely, because

when we get nervous and when we're excited, we speed up. And then we're not in control anymore. So even though like the effort going in to slowing down is a way to gain control.

Harley (51:11)
Mm.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

that's excellent advice. Thank you for that. And just quickly, what about the other side of the spectrum? what psychological elements are good for a submissive to try and embody?

Shelby Devlin (51:45)
honesty.

Harley (51:46)
Honesty.

Can you elaborate on that?

Shelby Devlin (51:51)
So I think a lot of submissives have it in their head that they're supposed to be pleasing to their dominant, you know, and certainly in a longer term relationship or in like a dynamic that's been playing out for a while, like I want my submissives to be pleasing. I want them to do a good job for me. Absolutely. But when I'm, you know, working with a new submissive or I have a new lover and we haven't built up enough safety and trust for

Harley (51:57)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (52:19)
just to like anticipate each other's needs. Like, I need them to be real with me about like where their heads at, what they want, you know, what's working and what's not working. I don't want to have to guess and read your mind all the time. So if you come into my office and you've had a hard day and your mind is somewhere else and you're not being honest with me about it, I'm going to feel it in our session together. It's going to come into the dynamic.

And I don't have any patience for the lack of communication. so my advice to submissives is before you play with someone, be honest about what kind of experience you want. Even if you're totally crushing hard on this person and you would do anything to get them in bed and you really want to please them, you have to be honest with them about what it is that you're actually there for. Otherwise, you're going to have this experience. It's not going to be great for you. And it might end up harming you in some way.

Harley (53:01)
Mm-hmm.

You

Shelby Devlin (53:18)
And that's not good for anyone, right? And maybe the dominant would have done something completely

Harley (53:20)
No.

Shelby Devlin (53:23)
different if they had known like what you needed that day or what your true desires are. It's not a one size fits all situation.

Harley (53:32)
Yeah, it

sounds like that can really change from the day to day as you say. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (53:37)
Absolutely. Or if someone has

like a, you know, an injury or they're feeling sad, you know, I have this client that I've been working with for months and usually we do some like pretty complex degradation. That's what our scenes consist of. And he came into my office and he had just gotten some bad news and it was like bad news. And he

Harley (53:53)
Mm.

Shelby Devlin (54:08)
was so upset because he was like, really value our time together and I come to you because I get this thing that I really need and I still need that, but I just like, can't do it. Like, I don't know what I need. So we like cuddled, you know, we cuddled and that's how I dominated him in that, that day. And then we ended up doing like a little bit of pain, pain play where we were cuddling, right? It was like mostly focusing on like helping him feel safe and connected to, and that there was like a place for his sadness. And that's how I showed up.

as a leader that day, right? And the only reason I could do that was because he told me what was going on. Not only did he tell me about his bad news, but he told me about how he was like not in the right headspace. And he didn't feel like he wanted to do the thing that he typically wanted to do. And he was like, anxious about it. Like he shared all of that for me. And that gave me the information that I needed to take care of him and do a great job. And we had a great fucking day.

Harley (55:06)
that is such a great example. Yeah. And I feel like being able to communicate well about where you're at and what you're feeling, what you want, what you don't want, what your boundaries are, all of that information is then going to be helping that dominant feel more confident because they know that they can safely lean into this. They know what you're wanting. They know where the boundaries of the player are.

Shelby Devlin (55:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Harley (55:31)
and they don't have to be second guessing themselves going, are they really up for this? Something feels off. Yeah. All right. Well, we're almost out of time already. It always goes so quickly. but I would love to finish up by asking you about your book that you're writing.

Shelby Devlin (55:37)
Yeah.

Thanks

Yes. my gosh. Thank you, Harley. I'm so excited about this. So I am, I am writing an introductory to BDSM book. haven't like really fleshed out the title yet, but basically it's my entire process of how I teach my clients and how I teach coaches to work with their clients around BDSM and kink. So I'm putting it all into a book from like the beginning of like, this is what BDSM, this is what it isn't. This is the psychology behind it.

Harley (55:49)
Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (56:15)
This is what consent is. This is how you're safe. This is how you flog someone. This is how you spank someone. This is how you build a scene. This is how you build a dynamic over time. I've just put all of this information, all the things I've been doing for over 10 years, and I'm putting them into this book.

Harley (56:33)
That sounds like such a great resource. will definitely be wanting to get a copy of that when it's out. What inspired you to write it?

Shelby Devlin (56:42)
Well, I don't like the BDSM books that are out there.

Harley (56:47)
Yeah, I am going to agree with that. Yep.

Shelby Devlin (56:50)
even the best of them are not great. someone is gonna like fire back at me about that, I'm sure. But I've read them, I've read them all. And a lot of the time they just kind of get into emotional processing in a way that's like very personal, but not practical. So it's not like a how-to. It's like, doesn't know how I feel about this. It's very...

There's a lot of, what is the word I'm looking for here? on the tip of my tongue.

Harley (57:22)
you

Shelby Devlin (57:23)
Damn it. I know like as soon as we end our discussion, I'm gonna like think of the right word. It's like, it's like a philosophy. A lot of these books contain a lot of philosophy rather than how to, not just how to like flog someone or tie someone up, but how to conceptualize your own desire and communicate it in a way that will be effective. How to talk to someone about consent.

Harley (57:26)
Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (57:51)
how to talk to someone about getting tested. How do you do that? A lot of people want to do it. They understand that it would be helpful, but they don't know how to do these things. And so this book is really like a how-to of the whole process of like how to think about it, how to communicate about it, how to put it into practice, how to problem solve when things don't go well. I mean, even the, I've been talking about this a lot. I just reread S &M 101 by Jay Weisman.

Harley (58:01)
Yep. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shelby Devlin (58:21)
And that's basically

been like the go-to kind of gold standard of like introductory to BDSM. And he wrote that in the mid 90s and it is frankly very dated and a lot of information in there is quite dangerous at this point.

Harley (58:27)
Thank

Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (58:38)
It's just, there's a void here, Harley, and I feel like I'm in a good position to fill that void.

Harley (58:45)
Absolutely. I feel that void as well in where I've been trying to educate myself and I haven't really found a great resource. I pull bits and pieces and they've all got their gems, but I really feel like there is a lot of room for some more books in this space, especially updated versions, as you say. Yeah. So when can we expect that one to be out? Is it in the near future or is it still?

Shelby Devlin (58:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Harley (59:15)
It's rolling your eyes there.

Shelby Devlin (59:15)
I mean.

I don't have like a date. It would definitely be sometime next year.

Harley (59:23)
Yeah.

that's not too far away. Fantastic.

Shelby Devlin (59:28)
Yeah, but if, you know,

if once I have more information, then maybe we can have another conversation. I can give, you know, have an update.

Harley (59:34)
Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to have you back on the show to talk about the book specifically when you bring it out. Yeah. So on that note, where can people find you if they want to follow along, if they want to find out when the book is out, if they want to work with you, what's the best place for them to get in touch?

Shelby Devlin (59:41)
I'd be happy to.

The easiest place to reach out to me is my website at ShelbyDevlin.com. I have a lot of information there. I have a blog I write every month, a lot of BDSM and kinky stuff and like, you know, pop culture relevant. And you can sign up for like my mailing list. So if I have any, you know, like a new post or when the book comes out or if I'm doing a workshop, you can find information there.

And then there's also a page on my website where you can schedule a free call with me if you'd like to chat with me about something.

Harley (1:00:27)
Fantastic. Do you do online sessions or is it only in person? perfect. Okay. wow. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (1:00:30)
I do. I do. I actually work with people all over the world. It's like crazy. know, like

someone from far away will like have a meeting with me I'm like, how, how did you find me? Like, why me? Like what is happening here? And just like, well, San Francisco, figured that would be the place, you know? Like you're not wrong.

Harley (1:00:42)
You

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you're obviously there's that as we started this conversation with there's something about you that's meant to do this work and people are really drawn to. Yeah.

Shelby Devlin (1:01:00)
Thank

you, that feels really good to hear.

Harley (1:01:03)
Good. Just to finish up, the last question I always ask my wonderful guests is if they have any book recommendations for our listeners. And this can be kink related, it doesn't have to be, it can be fiction, non-fiction, just a book that you love and you would recommend.

Shelby Devlin (1:01:16)
Mm-hmm.

We'll definitely Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty series.

Harley (1:01:24)
Yes, I've definitely got that written down.

Shelby Devlin (1:01:26)
It is

maximum spicy. is erotica and it's very beautifully written. It is very intense though, so it's not for the faint of heart. Justin Lehmiller's book, Me What You Want is more of a learning book than an entertainment book.

Harley (1:01:45)
Yep.

Is that the one where he conducted a really big study himself? Yeah, that is the one I'm thinking of. Okay. Fantastic.

Shelby Devlin (1:01:52)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And sure, you know what? I'm gonna plug the actor series, know, A Court of Thorns and Roses. Like it's really, it's having its moment right now and it's a great read. There isn't any BDSM in there, but the sex scenes are pretty good. It's like well written. It's a good series. It's a good jumping off point into the romanticy genre with some spice.

Harley (1:02:04)
Yeah, okay

Yeah.

Yeah. I love it. I've, I've heard good things about that series. So, I think that's a, a good recommendation, of course. Well, all of those, resources and links to Shelby's website will be in the show notes. If anybody is interested, you can find all that info there. if you have enjoyed this episode, remember to please give us a five star rating or leave a review. That really helps to.

to grow the show and for other people to find us and get to listen in into these beautiful conversations, these important conversations. Shelby, thank you so much for joining us. It has been an absolute honor to get to talk to you. This hour just went so quickly. feel like there's so much more I could ask you about, but I think we covered a lot of great stuff today.

Shelby Devlin (1:03:09)
Thank

Yeah, thank you, Harley. It has truly been my pleasure to chat with you today. Thank you.

Harley (1:03:20)
All right everyone, thank you so much for listening. Till next time, play safe, have fun, and stay curious.